Interview with Jane Sigsworth

Jane Sigsworth on the things people find hard when they have a fearful dog, and the beauty of a safe space for dogs to be off-leash.

Recently I wrote about desensitization and counter-conditioning in dog training, an important technique to help fearful dogs. As a talented dog trainer who helps clients with fearful and aggressive dogs, Jane Sigsworth uses this technique often. I spoke to her to learn about some of her case studies – and the holiday cottage where reactive dogs can roam free.



Zazie: How did you get into dog training?

Jane: A long time ago I had a dog who, looking back, didn’t really have many issues, but I felt he did at the time. He was a big barker and I was concerned about what my neighbours would think about him. So I started to look for information about how to deal with it and went on what can only be said was a very circuitous route initially. I did courses and workshops that didn’t contain good information. At the time I didn’t know anything so I didn’t know any better back then, put it that way. It was really to solve my own dog’s problems, but it wasn’t meant to be a career change. It became a quality of life issue for my husband and I. We spent the first 16 years of marriage always living apart because of our jobs and shifts. That’s why, in the end, I decided to make the career change to have a better quality of life, but that wasn’t initially my intention. Really the short answer is to solve my first dog’s issues.

Zazie: I think that probably applies to a lot of people, that they find their way into dog training because of a problem (or something that’s perceived as a problem). So, tell me about your business.

Jane: I have two sides to my business. I have Dog Knowledge, which is my behaviour and training side. I run puppy and adult training classes, and I do one-to-one behaviour consultations and training appointments, and a little bit of day training. The training classes are at a venue but the rest of the time I’m fairly mobile in where I work, either working from the places that I do my training classes or I go to people’s houses.

"Just a couple of weeks ago the vet was able to listen to his heart for the first time, to get close enough."

And then the other side of my business is Holiday With Your Dogs, which is a holiday cottage. It stemmed from my interest in fear and aggression issues, because I realized there are a lot of people who had issues with their dog and couldn’t come and go and let them off-lead because they felt that they were aggressive towards other dogs or they didn’t like strangers. And also people with dogs like retired racing Greyhounds that couldn’t let them off the lead because they were afraid they’d kill the neighbour’s cat. So the holiday cottage started out of that but it’s kept quite separate to my behaviour business. I like people to be able to come and have a relaxing holiday. Not many guests know what I do for a living because I don’t want them thinking that I’m looking at them in the field and thinking ‘well that’s why you’ve got a problem, you’re doing X, Y and Z.’ So I do tend to keep the two sides of the business very separate, but the holiday cottage business came about because I realized that there weren’t very many safe places where people could go and were comfortable letting their dogs off-lead, and also people with multiple dogs. You know if you’ve got five or six dogs, where can you go on holiday with your dogs? Where can you take them? So that’s the two sides to the business.

Zazie: That’s fantastic. I think it’s so useful and relaxing for people to have somewhere like that to go. How would you describe the area in which your holiday cottage is?

Jane: Stunningly beautiful! It’s located in the Cothi Valley in south-west Wales so it’s very lushly green everywhere all year round. And they’ve got 22 acres of secure paddocks where they can just come. It’s been designed like a country park so there’s woodlands and walks and dog waste bins and benches and picnic tables and things all around. So it makes it feel like they’re in a country park but they’re not having to look over their shoulder. So they can come to a beautiful part of the world. It’s quite rural, you don’t want to be looking for a cash point [ATM] locally – well we do have one not too far away but certainly not supermarkets and things.

Zazie: It sounds gorgeous! So back to your dog training business, I was wondering if you could give me an example of when you use classical conditioning to help a client’s dog?

Jane: A lot of my work involves fear and also aggression. It tends to be dogs that have resource guarding issues, either dog-dog guarding issues or dogs to people guarding issues. Also body handling issues, dogs that dislike grooming or any hands coming towards them. And fear of strangers whether that’s globally – anybody new – or just particular types of people. Men or children are the common ones. They would be the three main areas where I use classical conditioning in my work. But because I do a lot of dog-dog work where fear isn’t an issue, one of the prerequisites for the work that I do, if I’m going to be introducing dogs and we don’t have known play histories, a prerequisite would be that the client’s dog is muzzle trained. I would use classical conditioning then because it might be they’ve never seen a muzzle before so they don’t have any fear or anxiety about the muzzle, but we don’t want to be just putting it on their faces. So we would enlist classical conditioning techniques in order to help the dog feel comfortable wearing the piece of equipment before we’re going to go and put them in a field with another dog. They’re the main areas that I use classical conditioning.

Zazie: Do you think there are any aspects of it that clients find particularly hard?

Jane: Yes, I think clients do find it difficult. It’s not intuitive to them. They hear all the time about reinforcing the behaviour that they want and not reinforcing the behaviour that they don’t want, so it feels wrong to them to be what they think is rewarding unwanted behaviour. It’s difficult to get their head around the fact that classical conditioning isn’t behaviour-dependent. I would always recommend, if there’s fear and aggression there, for clients to get professional help because a professional is going to get them through the protocol so much faster and more efficiently than trying to do it themselves. I think the technical aspects of classical conditioning are quite difficult for people. There’s aspects of getting the order of events correct. I think owners can be so focussed on thinking ‘I’ve got to feed, feed, feed, I’d better get a handful of food out now because a stranger’s just walked around the corner’. They might have seen the stranger before their dog has, so they can get the order of events incorrect. I think classical conditioning is really tough for people to do, to maintain the one-to-one ratio and to not get their CSs and USs in the wrong order. I think it’s really tough for owners.

Zazie: I think you’re right. I wonder if you could talk me through a case study?

Jane: I’ve got tons of case studies!  These are a couple of my cases at the moment. I’ve got a dog called Sasha who’s a 16-month old Siberian Husky. She’s got quite bad body-handling issues. It started off as growling and then progressed to snapping at her owners and she occasionally catches their arms when they go to put the harness over her head. They persevered thinking that the harness was going on to take her for a walk and so she’d enjoy the walk and get used to the harness. But actually all she’s done is sensitize to it, and now any hands coming towards her for anything, or even if it’s not necessarily going towards her but she catches it out of her peripheral vision, she’s snapping. She’s getting pre-emptive snaps in. So with her, we’ve used classical conditioning. We got a new harness and a new lead so they didn’t come with any existing negative CERs. And I’ve been working with the owners with a protocol to help her change the way that she feels about first of all seeing the equipment. Now over time the equipment has reliably predicted great things happening and we’ve slowly progressed to the harness going over her head. The sound of the clips was a little bit loaded for her so we’ve worked on all those aspects until now she’s comfortable with the harness going on. And we’re working with members of the family because it’s quite a big family that lives with her and some of them are a bit scared of her now to be honest, so some of it is working with them. But that’s going really well and I’m really pleased with that. She’s learning that the new harness predicts all things great.

"I realized that there weren’t very many safe places where people could go and were comfortable letting their dogs off-lead"

Another case is a dog called Rocky who’s a 12-month old Border Collie. He’s terrified of all strangers globally, it doesn’t matter whether they’re children, females, men, men with beards, men wearing crash helmets, it doesn’t matter. He’s just afraid of anybody new. That’s been a case of using classical conditioning and the usual protocols to help him learn that strangers and new people predict great things are happening. Going back to clients finding it difficult, he’s really struggling with the technique. Even though the training sessions with me are going really really well, and I’ve talked to him about not walking the dog in areas where he’s going to be in close proximity to people that will take him over threshold, the owner finds that really hard to get his head around. He has a dog, dogs need walking, going to the park is a nice place to walk even if it’s bank holiday weekend when it’s going to be packed. And that's why he got the dog, so that's hard.

Archie, my own dog, he’s a Saluki-mix, basically a desert dog from Abu Dhabi. I guess genetically not programmed to live in captivity. He came with major body handling issues and major fear of people and just global anxiety about anything. If it existed, he was afraid of it. With him, he’s on medication. It’s been a long journey because in Abu Dhabi we couldn’t get meds for him, anti-anxiety meds. So since we’ve been back we’ve been working on finding the right medication and the right dose, which has helped enormously and we’ve made great strides since we’ve been back. Part of that has been The Husbandry Project [from the Academy for Dog Trainers]. I’ve been part of that, working with him, doing the preparatory work and then taking him to the vet, which is amazing. Just a couple of weeks ago the vet was able to listen to his heart for the first time, to get close enough.

Zazie: Wow!

Jane: He went into lateral recumbency and stationed in the vet room and she listened to his heart, and we were kind of pulling these faces. We wanted to scream and say “Yay!!!” So that was really nice. It just shows you the power of this method. Before that he had to be muzzled, it was deeply traumatic for all concerned if we had to take him to the vet. So they’ve not been able to get a lot of hands on with him before. He’s doing really well!

"I spend a lot of time with recalls because I think it’s the most important behaviour"

Zazie: That’s such a wonderful change. Brilliant. Now, what’s your favourite thing to teach clients and their dogs?

Jane: I have loads! My absolute favourite thing is to have off-lead play in puppy socialization classes, and to teach clients about play behaviour, consent tests, and normal dog behaviour. I absolutely love that. When you have people who are really nervous and uptight if there’s any growling or pinning down and then you see them develop and say ‘well I’ll do a consent test but I  know he’s going to run straight back in to play’ and they do that and feel comfortable about it. I absolutely love that.

In terms of behaviours, I love teaching recalls [coming when called]. I spend a lot of time with recalls because I think it’s the most important behaviour. If they don’t get anything else on board I always think at least recall is a life-saving behaviour. So I’m really trying to teach them to build strong recalls and do lots of different games and things with recall to make it fun for them and the dog. I think those are my favourites.

Zazie: Tell me about your dogs.

Jane: I have four dogs. They’re all rescues. They all have various issues. My two English dogs came with aggression issues. I guess this is why I’ve been drawn to fear and aggression issues because of the dogs, and I probably select those kind of dogs. Those two are great now. Then I’ve got Archie who is fearful of everything and aggressive to make the stimulus go further away. Then I’ve got Alfie who will run away and hide and make himself really small because he’s a bit scared of things.

Zazie: Thank you!



Companion Animal Psychology has published interviews with talented scientists, writers, trainers and veterinarians who are working to promote good animal welfare. See the full list or subscribe to learn more about how to have happy dogs and cats.

About Jane Sigsworth:
Jane Sigsworth holds a Master's degree with Distinction in Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare from Newcastle University. She is also an honours graduate of the prestigious Academy for Dog Trainers. She has over fifteen years' of experience in private consulting and animal rescue centre work.

This interview has been lightly edited for space and some dogs’ names have been changed.

Companion Animal Psychology is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Companion Animal Psychology is also a participant in the Etsy Affiliate Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Etsy.com.

Interview with Lori Nanan

Lori Nanan on training dogs to love nail trims and why slowing down is good for us.

Recently I wrote about desensitization and counter-conditioning in dog training, an important technique to help fearful dogs. Lori Nanan’s course Nailed It! shows people how to use this technique to teach dogs to love having their nails trimmed. I caught up with Lori to find out more. At the end of the post, you'll find special discount codes for Companion Animal Psychology readers on the full range of courses at lorinanan.com.


Zazie: Why did you decide to write the course?

Lori: It started a few years ago. I had a dog, Rocco, who for his entire life nail care was pretty traumatic. I was never able to make it right and it really kind of ate away at me for most of his life. And when we brought Hazel home, I was sort of determined that that would never be the case for any other dog of mine. So I guess in 2014, 2015 I wrote a blog where I laid out steps that I followed in a training to plan to get Hazel comfortable with my handling of her legs and paws and restraining for toes, getting her to love a nail file – I actually used a nail file at that time – and then being comfortable and relaxed with me filing her nails. And the blog was very successful. I got lots of feedback from lots of people that they were actually able to use it, which was fantastic.

And then at the beginning of 2017 I suddenly got this bug in my ear that I had to take on the next level of challenge which was in my mind using a Dremel. And so I bought a Dremel and it literally sat in the box for about 2 months because I was so afraid to try to use it on her. Then I buckled down and got myself comfortable with it and had success with it. And my initial thought was ‘Okay well I’ll write another blog’. But then the more I thought about it the more I thought there was a bigger opportunity to get this particular information and related information out to people. So I decided to create the course.

"Slowing down is as good for us as it is for the dogs."

As I was creating the course, I had different people testing different implements, taking their own dogs through a plan, just to make sure that it actually did translate as well from nail files to Dremel and then clippers as well. And just like with the blog, these people were able to successfully maintain their dog’s nails and gain an understanding of things like desensitization and counter-conditioning and classical conditioning, and why I felt it was important for a lot of dogs and help people to use those methods rather than operant conditioning and say give me a paw, I clip your nail, you get a treat. That’s the quick and dirty of the whole thing, which has been way more successful than I ever would have imagined. I knew that people had this problem, I just had no idea that there were so many of us.

Zazie: I’ve seen the course materials and it’s fantastic so I’m not surprised so many people are finding it helpful. Why do you think nail trims are difficult for so many dogs?

Lori: There’s a couple of reasons. One of them is an intrinsic evolutionary biology thing about restraint. A lot of dogs don’t like being restrained and that has to do with wild ancestors being prey animals, being injured in the course of being predators, and if you lose a leg, guess what you’re not going to be able to chase prey any more. And that means you’re going to die, you’re not going to be able to reproduce and continue your lineage. So there’s that, that’s just sort of in there in the dog.

Many dogs have bad experiences. We’ve for decades and decades performed procedures on dogs without their consent and sometimes they’re painful, sometimes they’re simply uncomfortable, sometimes the dog isn’t comfortable with the stranger or the person doing it and the procedure might be okay but then they make an association between the two and things can go downhill. One bad experience can cause a lifetime of negative reactions to things.

My Rocco, the very first time I clipped his nails as a puppy I cut the quick, which is the blood supply through the nail, and it was traumatic for both of us. He was definitely afraid of letting anybody come near his paws after that and I was definitely afraid to do it because it was awful. And so it becomes charged for people if they have had that bad experience doing it themselves on their dogs, or had a bad experience seeing a veterinarian do it for their dog. And that one bad experience can really ruin it for a dog for life, unless we get to work in a way that is systematic, gradual, granular, and step-by-step to help them feel comfortable again.

Zazie: You said that you thought it was more appropriate to use classical conditioning rather than a DRI in this case. Can I ask you why you think that?

Lori: I think I’ve seen it probably hundreds of times at this point, where people say ‘My dog used to be comfortable with giving me a paw, me clipping, and then giving a treat’. But I think that for some of the reasons I explained a couple of minutes ago, that becomes too expensive for the dog. The payoff of a treat for a clip is often just not enough, because they’re probably truly not comfortable, they’re just doing it because dogs do those sort of things. They’re pretty good sports in a lot of cases, they go along with things maybe because there’s a payoff but maybe just because they’re good sports and docile and they put up with a lot from us. But I’ve seen it time and time again where people will say my dog used to be comfortable with that, give paw, get clipped, get treat, or my dog used to be comfortable using a scratch board and then getting a treat, and eventually the payoff just is not enough for the dog.

Zazie: So it’s too hard really. One of the things that you focus on in the course materials is that people need to have a 1:1 ratio. I was wondering if you would mind explaining for blog readers why that’s so important.

Lori: It’s really, really, important when we’re doing things like classical conditioning or counter-conditioning or desensitization that we keep the criteria clear for the dog. So we do the thing and this is what happens. We really want the dog to be comfortable with the whole process. It’s a way of ensuring that the dog is comfortable with the whole process that we’re not pushing past where we are currently just because we feel like it. It’s sort of a contract that we’re making with the dog. And any time we break that contract or don’t keep that clear, we weaken the association that we want to make. Which is, touching your arm is not scary, touching your foot is not scary, because we’ve done it in a way that keeps you comfortable every step along the way.

Zazie: Another thing that I really like is you say, you can never go too slow or be too generous. Do you think that’s a message that people find easy or difficult to get?

Lori: In our human world, we are very used to instant results. We’re very used to getting information at the touch of a button, we can make purchases at the touch of a button, we have pizza delivered to our house in 30 minutes or less. We’re used to things happening fast, fast, fast. And so when we ask people to slow down and do things at the dog’s speed, yes it’s absolutely hard.

"We’ve for decades and decades performed procedures on dogs without their consent"

For a lot of us, it’s not a way that we’ve always interacted with our dogs. We just kind of take for granted that they’re going to go along with things. And slowing down is as good for us as it is for the dogs. It helps us be more mindful of what we’re doing and it helps us learn how to pay attention to what’s happening for our dogs. For some reason, I see it all the time and I’ll be honest even with my own pups, we like giving dogs treats, we’re pretty generous with that. But when it comes to working with dogs, people tend to get a little stingy. Being generous for me means okay we’re going to upgrade, we’re not going to use kibble we’re not going to use commercial grade treats from the grocery store. We’re going to use something super delicious that the dog really likes and we’re not going to be stingy about it because this thing matters and that’s what helps the dog make the association between the process and enjoying it.

So I want people to slow down to bio-speed a little bit and be more observant of what’s happening with their dog, and be generous throughout the process because we really need for these associations to be strong. And we also want the dog to like processes like this. In cases that go beyond nail care, like veterinary care, we need the dog to like the process in order for it to go smoothly and successfully.

Zazie: I also wanted to ask you about different ways of clipping nails because you have plans for the nail file, Dremel and clippers. Do you have a personal preference now for one of those?

Lori: I have to admit that based on my experiences with my Rocco years ago, I’ve not been able to get over my clipper fear. So that’s definitely the lowest on my list. I am in awe of people who are comfortable with clippers and I give them major props for that. For me the margin of error with clippers is much bigger. I think the opportunity to accidentally clip a dog is bigger with clippers. The Dremel goes quicker than the nail file, but for me I like the nail file. I use a Dremel currently. Every once in a while I switch back to a nail file. I feel like I do the best job with a nail file and I think it’s the easiest for people to get comfortable with, even for big dogs. I used the nail file on Hazel for 2 years before I switched. You can do a dog’s nails sustainably with a nail file so the Dremel is definitely quicker but it doesn’t have to be just a starter tool. I was able to do it for 2 years. I just bought bulk files from Amazon and worked on Hazel’s nails about 2 times a week. Which is about what I do now, I try to fit in to the schedule. Either a nail file or a Dremel are the easiest for people, and I do recognize that I have a little bit of a bias there.

Zazie: People can find Nailed It! on lorinanan.com but I heard that you’ve got some other courses in the works, so what else can people look forward to finding there?

Lori: We currently have a course out with Malena DeMartini called Separation Anxiety: Mission Possible. Malena has written a book on separation anxiety, she’s the expert and she travels the world speaking about it. We also have another course called Pestering Pooches with my friend Kristi Benson which is all about teaching dogs not to jump on guests when they come in the house, not to pester and bug people while they’re eating, and it’s super fun. Kristi’s got a fantastic sense of humour and a fantastic way that she presents information. I’m actually taking Hazel through all of the plans because for her entire life with us so far we’ve kind of allowed her to jump on people because she was afraid of people when we first brought her home and now she loves them. And so we want that to be the way that things are but she could probably be a bit more polite about it. So we’re going through the training plans and it’s actually been a lot of fun. And then we’ve got some other things in the works but they’re a bit further down the line right now.

Zazie: Tell me about your pets.

Lori: Hazel is a 7 year old. She’s considered a pit bull mix, she’s really just a bunch of terriers and bulls that put together have a little bit of a blocky head. Her blocky head is not as blocky as many other pit bull type dogs. We adopted her from Philadelphia Animal Care and Control and she is just wonderful. I call her famous. She’s the face of a lot of things that I do, a great dog for training and just a lot of fun. She really loves people so she’s a joy.

And then we have a cat named MooMoo who my husband adopted the day before we met, about 11 years ago now. And MooMoo is a very sweet and personable cat who happens to not like other cats. So we’re a one cat, one dog family at this point. And I’ve actually trained MooMoo to sit for a verbal cue which feels like a massive accomplishment for me because cats are different from dogs. She works for dried minnows, she likes those.

Zazie: Nice! Thank you so much for your time.


Lori has provided discount codes for anyone interested in the courses at lorinanan.com.
The discount code is CAP, and it gives 40% off Nailed It! and Pestering Pooches, and 20% off the other courses.
Nailed It
Pestering Pooches
Separation Anxiety: Mission POSSIBLE
It's Tricky: Learning to Train your Dog with Tricks
Leave It: Help for Leash Reactive Dogs
Pearly Whites: A Course in Pet Dental Care
How to Potty Train your Dog: Three Easy Steps from Mess to Success
Edit Yourself: Writing Skills for Dog Trainers

There is also a free course called Where Advocacy and Behavior Meet.

About Lori Nanan:
Lori Nanan is the owner of LoriNanan.com, a company which creates online courses for dog owners and professionals, as well as marketing and support services for reward-based dog trainers. She also works for The Academy for Dog Trainers as a project manager and is the founder of the nonprofit Your Pit Bull and You. Lori lives in New Hope, PA. with her husband, Paul, their cat MooMoo and a dog, Hazel, who is the love of their lives and serves as inspiration for everything they do.

Companion Animal Psychology has published interviews with talented scientists, writers, trainers and veterinarians who are working to promote good animal welfare. See the full list, or subscribe to learn more about how to have happy dogs and cats.

Companion Animal Psychology is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Companion Animal Psychology is also a participant in the Etsy Affiliate Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Etsy.com.

An Interview with Prof. Hal Herzog

Hal Herzog on our complicated relationship with animals – and what it says about being human.

Prof. Hal Herzog’s fascinating book, Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat: Why It's So Hard to Think Straight About Animals was the Companion Animal Psychology Book Club choice for June 2018. I was thrilled to interview him about the book – and book club members asked some questions too.


Zazie: Many people have said the book is fascinating, and some have said it’s disturbing as well.

Hal: Oh good! Well that’s what I was going for!

Zazie: I think it’s because of what you refer to as “flagrant moral incoherence” when it comes to animals. Why is our relationship with animals so complicated?

Hal: That’s the whole theme of the book really. There’s a couple of answers to that. One is that when it comes to thorny moral issues, most of them are complicated. One of the reasons why I study human-animal relationships is I think they offer a window into how we think about ethical issues generally. So I think the same principles apply. The same complications, quandaries, and paradoxes, occur in our relationships with other people as well. So one reason it’s hard to think straight about animals, one reason it’s hard to think about animals ethically, is it’s hard to think straight about many things when it comes to ethics.

The other is that you have a lot of variables affecting how we think about animals. One is you have this conflict between logic and intuition, you have the fact that the way we think about animals is determined both by biological instincts and also our ability to think rationally, and other factors such as the words we use, that is language. And what cognitive psychologists call mental heuristics, which are quick and dirty rules of thumb which don’t always lead to truth, which sometimes lead to erroneous judgments.

Zazie: I think that’s why it’s such an interesting book, is that there are these inconsistencies. The next question is from book club member Sarah McLaren and this question relates to the section about cruelty to animals in childhood, because we hear a lot about the supposed link between cruelty to animals in childhood and later criminal behaviour, but your book includes examples from completely normal people, and I think a lot of people found that quite hard to read about. So the question is, I wonder if there was ever any correlation between the action of those children who were cruel to animals and the actions of their parents? Were they children who had harsher discipline or a family without animals?

Hal: I don’t know the answer to that. I didn’t ask them about that specifically so I don’t really have a good answer to that one. My guess is probably we saw the same sorts of variation in their parents as you do in most other people. That’s to say, some of them were probably exposed to cruelty when they grew up and some of them probably were not, probably in about the same ratio as other people. The other thing that I think is interesting is what we consider cruelty, for example oftentimes people forget that hunting is a form of animal abuse. I remember when Obama was President he declared October National Hunting and Fishing Month. And so we have these forms of institutionalized cruelty. Not only did he say it was National Hunting and Fishing Month, he said take your kids outdoors for hunting and fishing. And we don’t think of that as sort of institutionalized cruelty. My own view is that probably the vast majority of people that are engaged in hunting and fishing are not wantonly cruel in other aspects of their lives. They compartmentalize that. I don’t think there’s any way around the fact that hunting and fishing are about killing and hurting animals.

Zazie: Interesting, thank you. This question is from veterinarian Dr. Carol Haak. She says, in the process of doing research for the book, did you find your position of feelings on any particular issue change? Or did you remain mostly in the troubled middle?

Hal: I remained mostly on the troubled middle. I’m a little bit different than a lot of other researchers, probably most researchers in the field, in that a lot of them are drawn to the field because their lives are tied up with animals and they’re animal-lovers. I’m an animal lover too, but I’m not an animal protectionist historically. I’ve got a PhD in Animal Behaviour and I’ve always been fascinated by animals, but I was really drawn to the field not because of my love of animals, it was because I saw this way of looking at some very complicated ways of human psychology. Interestingly, the thing that I changed my mind about most in writing the book wasn’t about ethical issues, it was about the role of evolution and culture in human nature.

Zazie: Oh wow.

Hal: Yeah, I really made a major change in that while I was writing the book. For many, many, years I’ve considered myself an evolutionary psychologist and I still do, but I really strongly believed that most of our behaviour was determined by biological factors that shaped the minds of our ancestors. And I no longer believe that. And the reason why I no longer believe that, the real key to changing my mind on that, is I studied how people choose breeds of dogs for pets. And what I realized is that the role of culture was really much more important than I had realized. That came up in a couple of areas. One was popular culture change, which was the dog breed study. I think if I had to write it over again I would change one thing, and that was I did not realize the importance of culture in how much meat we eat. The degree to which we eat meat, I was thinking everybody’s like Americans and everywhere in the world people are eating a couple hundred pounds of meat per capita per year. And that’s just not true. There are places where people eat 10 pounds of meat per year per capita. In most places in Europe, people eat maybe 150 or less pounds of meat per year. Really the United States is an outlier when it comes to meat consumption. So my argument that humans are natural meat eaters, I don’t believe that. On the other hand, I believe that culture plays an enormous role in the form and frequency that meat eating takes.

"I wanted to get at this issue of how you wake up in the morning and get through the day trying to be a good person in a world which is incredibly morally complicated."

Zazie: That’s really interesting. I wanted to ask you a related question because you write a bit about lapsed vegetarians in the book, and I’m a lapsed vegetarian but I also had a mostly-vegetarian upbringing. So I wanted to ask you about the role of culture in influencing whether or not people eat meat or become vegetarian. Why do you think there are there so many lapsed vegetarians?

Hal: I think that’s really a great question. One is that a lot of vegetarians aren’t really serious about it. So it might be when you look at those percentages – I’ve written a blog about that – it looks like about 85% of vegetarians and about 75% of vegans go back to eating meat. In some cases because they weren’t really serious vegetarians to begin with, they might have done it for a little while, a couple of weeks and then they stop. But more interesting were people that were vegetarians for many years. For example, my daughter was a vegetarian for 20 years. In her case she went back to eating meat for health reasons. And I’ve done some studies and other people have done some studies as well, and there’s not one reason why people go back to eating meat. There are several reasons. One is health, if you feel like your health is going down. Another is social pressure. Less common is that they miss the taste of meat. What we found was very few of the ones that we talked to had changed their ethical stance toward meat. So it wasn’t like they suddenly opened their eyes and said ‘oh, my belief that we shouldn’t eat animals because they’re sentient creatures, that view was wrong’. Hardly anybody felt that way. So they managed to start eating meat but yet still basically keep their moral stance with animals intact.

Zazie: You referred already to your work on the popularity of dog breeds. This question is from book club member Patience Fisher.  She says, I liked how you used the baby names and fashion to illustrate the rise and fall of trends, including choosing dog breeds. I have read that in fashion, there are a few trend-setters that can jump-start this process, which is why the fashion industry gifts their items to celebrities. But it's not just them -- there are also the popular kids and other more local trend setters. I think the same with the dogs – you’re more apt to get a breed you've actually met, especially if it was owned by someone we admire, like a trainer.

Hal: I expect that’s true. I’m almost certain that would be true because from what we know about cultural change, the first part of the question was exactly right, there are influencers definitely. So for example when Paris Hilton gets a Chihuahua, it makes it more likely that other people are going to get Chihuahuas. One of the biggest trends that I see with dogs is the fact that more and more people are getting dogs that are rescue dogs from animal shelters or that have been abused. You see this a lot in celebrity interviews, or movie stars, where they’ll be talking about their dogs and they will almost always say it was a rescue animal. And I think those sort of testimonials have a big impact.

Zazie: Another question from Patience Fisher. She says, I find this book interesting but troubling. I'm wondering if you had trouble sleeping or eating while researching it, and if any of that still haunts you?

Hal: No, and the reason for that is that I’ve been dealing with these issues for 30 years. As I described in the book in the chapter on cock fighting, I originally started thinking about these issues seriously when I started hanging out with cock fighters. When I first started going to cock fights, I had exactly that experience. When I went to my first cock fight I was very, very, troubled by it. It kept haunting me and I could not sleep at night. I had sentences going through my head about what I’d seen at the cock fights. It wasn’t just the chickens dying, it was also that the whole scene was so strange and bizarre. Being around people who on the one hand had obviously enormous respect for animals and really knew a lot about them – cockfighters I wouldn’t say loved their animals but had this enormous respect for them – and at the same time were engaged in this blood sport where they’re killing them, and then once the animal’s dead they just threw it in a pile. I just could not wrap my head around that and I became more and more intrigued by them. The other thing is I found myself liking these rooster fighters. They were very nice to me and my wife and I had just moved to the mountains and were intrigued by our rough Appalachian neighbours. And so I sort of worked my way through that.

"Human-animal relationships offer a window into how we think about ethical issues generally."

And I also had trouble when I did the study with slaughtering for college students and I spent three days helping them slaughter animals. And the same thing, I couldn’t sleep at night. I didn’t write about it in the book but I did a study with circus animals, and the same thing happened. I was very disturbed by hanging out with these circus animal trainers and seeing how much they cared for the animals, and on the other hand how it’s impossible to justify if you think about the ethics of it. So there have been a number of times in my career where I have had these experiences but I had already dealt with it by the time I was writing the book, does that make sense? I had already come to grips with the issue.

Zazie: So a related question. Were there any bits of the research that were particular highlights for you and that you particularly enjoyed?

Hal: Yeah, absolutely. The chapter that I enjoyed writing the most was the chapter on meat, because I learned so much. A lot of the chapters I knew a lot about the material already because I’d written in the area or I’d done research in the area. But the chapter on meat, I had not, and I was just fascinated, for example by the woman I open that chapter with who is a former vegetarian who is eating raw liver for breakfast. The other highlights came when I was writing the last chapter. The book originally didn’t have a last chapter. So when I talked with the publisher, Harper Collins, it turned out that he had been an animal rights person when he was younger and he understood what the book was about at a very deep level, which a lot of people did not when I would first talk about it and the proposal. He understood it and he looked at me and he said, ‘You know your book really needs a last chapter, doesn’t it?’ And I knew that deep in my heart and I said, ‘Yeah’. But I did not know how I was going to end it until I was more than half way through the book and that’s when I ran into Michael Mountain. When we went out and spent a weekend at Best Friends Animal Sanctuary, it was a real highlight, hanging out there. And then meeting that woman Judy Muzzi In a bar in South Carolina and going out with her on the turtle rescue mission, those were real highlights too.

Zazie: I like what you say in the last chapter about what it means to be human and what Anthrozoology can tell us about being human and I wondered if I could get you to say a bit more about that?

Hal: I think that’s really why I wrote the book. At one time I was interviewed by a guy that has a radio talk show named Frank Stashio. I walked into his office and he said, ‘Ah, Dr. Herzog, I’ve just finished your book. It’s not really about animals, is it?’ And I wanted to kiss the guy, because he totally got it. On some levels the book is about animals, but I really wanted it to be deeper than that. I wanted to get at this issue of how you wake up in the morning and get through the day trying to be a good person in a world which is incredibly morally complicated. I’m constantly torn by the cultural and moral issues that we’re dealing with now, particularly related to the political system we’re in, and I think these are played out in our relationships with animals. One of the things about the study of human-animal relationships is people are so passionate about their relationship with animals. So if you take an issue like the debate over breed specific dog legislation, the partisans on both sides of that issue are so passionate. You know the issue really well. On the one hand you’ve got people who think pit bulls are the most misunderstood creatures on earth, on the other you’ve got people who think they are the devil incarnate, and it’s so hard for them to reach common ground. And that’s the sort of thing we’re dealing with in our political situation. Pit bull legislation is particularly interesting in this regard because the underlying theme in some ways is race. And so we see these really big themes about human nature played out on this arena of how we think about other species.

Zazie: So if you were to pick one particular human-animal issue that you think is the most important, or the most important at the moment, would you pick pit bulls or would it be something else that you would pick?

Hal: No it would not be pit bulls. The most important one in terms of the grand scheme of things would be meat eating, because we’re talking about pitting human nature, our desire to eat meat and in some ways our need to eat small amounts of meat, versus the knowledge that as more and more people decide to eat animals we have an environmentally unsustainable position. So we’re not only talking about millions and millions of animals killed for our dining pleasure, we’re also talking about the environmental cost of raising these millions and millions of animals. And then you’ve also got political issues for example in China, in India, in parts of Africa, where people have not had the luxury of eating meat. As they get wealthier they want to eat the stuff that we’ve been eating. So do we have the right to tell them, no you can’t eat that? So I think if you look at suffering, the environmental cost of the human-animal relationship that would be one of the biggest. And I think another big one would be the ethics of our relationship with pets. What right do we have to take an animal, the descendants of wolves, breed them in ways which cause them harm, intentionally breed them with harm, bring them into our home and not only do we feed them what we want to feed them we decide that they don’t have the right to a sex life and we cut off their reproductive organs. And we do this because of our personal pleasure, because we really want to love these animals. In some ways there are parallels between our love for pets and our love for meat, in that they both involve our preferences for what brings us joy, at in some cases a cost to the animals, but with meat always a cost to the animals.

Zazie: That’s really interesting, thank you. Is there anything else you’d like to say?

Hal: Well just thanks to you for picking the book and to the members of the book club for reading it and thinking about it, discussing it. Their questions are very thoughtful.

Zazie: Thank you!

You can read more about the book on Hal’s website halherzog.com , follow Hal on Twitter and read Hal’s blog Animals and Us at Psychology Today.

Companion Animal Psychology has published interviews with talented scientists, writers, trainers and veterinarians who are working to promote good animal welfare. See the full list or subscribe to learn more about how to have happy dogs and cats.

Bio: Hal Herzog is Professor Emeritus of Psychology at Western Carolina University. He received a BS in psychology from the American University of Beirut and a M.A. and Ph.D. in psychology from the University of Tennessee. Trained in animal behavior, for the past 30 years his research has focused on psychological and social aspects of human-animal interactions. These have included studies of public attitudes towards the use of animals, the decision-making processes of animal care and use committees, the roles of emotion and logic in moral judgment, the psychology of animal activism, and the impact of pets on human health and happiness. His articles have appeared in journals such as Science, the American Psychologist, Ethics and Behavior, the Journal of the American Veterinary Association, Anthrozoös, Society and Animals, Animal Behavior, the American Scholar, and Biology Letters. His articles and op eds have also appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, the Huffington Post, Time Magazine, and Wired Magazine. His book Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat: Why It’s So Hard To Think Straight About Animals (Harper) has been translated into nine languages, and he writes the blog Animals and Us for Psychology Today magazine. In 2013, he was given the Distinguished Scholar Award by the International Society for Anthrozoology.  He lives near Asheville, North Carolina with his wife Mary Jean and their cat Tilly.

Companion Animal Psychology is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Companion Animal Psychology is also a participant in the Etsy Affiliate Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Etsy.com.

An Interview with Dr. Marty Becker

"..a recognition that they have emotions and we have an obligation to look at both their physical and emotional well-being."

An interview with Dr. Marty Becker about the Fear Free™ movement, Fear Free Happy Homes, and his new book, From Fearful to Fear Free: A Positive Program to Free Your Dog from Anxiety, Fears, and Phobias, co-authored by Dr. Lisa Radosta, Dr. Wailani Sung, Mikkel Becker, and edited by Kim Campbell Thornton.



Zazie: I am absolutely thrilled to speak to you. I love your book, which is the choice for May for the Companion Animal Psychology Book Club and everyone’s been very excited to read it. So I’m going to ask you in a moment why you decided to write this particular book, but I wanted to ask you first of all how did the Fear Free™ movement come about?

Dr. Becker: I’ll give you the unvarnished, stripped down version of stuff that’s authentic. I’m 64 years old, and I’ve traveled to now, we just got back from Cuba so then it’s 84 countries, 7 continents, flown 5 million miles on Delta – real miles, not credit card miles. I’m at the highest level of Hilton, called Diamond Honors, I’m at the highest level of Marriott and them folks there’s only 1 out of 10,000 honoured guest members that are at a level I’m at called the Master level. So I’m tired. It’s really interesting, my daughter Mikkel is a well-known trainer, she’s 33 years old in December. And her first year alive I never, never, saw her. I left before she was awake and I came home after she was in bed. And then I read a book and decided to do a life change thing and started taking 3 months a year off. So for 32 years I’ve taken 3 months a year off. Not sequentially, but cumulatively. And then what I would do the other 9 months, I would just work twice as hard as everybody else. So I’d work 18 months-worth of work in 9 months, so it’s like ‘hell this guy’s gonna kill himself’. But nobody knows I have time off. So here comes Fear Free™. And I’m thinking, that’s interrupted my 3 months a year off.

I was at a veterinary conference, and my whole life I’ve always sat at the back of the room. So if I could manipulate it in grade school I'd be at the back of the room. In college, where you had a choice, I was at the back of the room. In vet school, I was at the back of the room. And never one to ask a question. I never asked one single question in vet school. You know, those people at the front would ask questions all the time. And I was in the back of the room at a veterinary conference on Vancouver Island in Victoria, and a boarded veterinary behaviourist named Karen Overall gave this talk on fear, and how fear was the worst thing a social species could experience and how it caused permanent damage to the brain. So those of us that are veterinary professionals are causing repeat severe psychological damage to pets by what we were doing and not doing. That behaviour produces a physiological response, so behaviour is medicine. And that we are not only harming them emotionally, we’re harming them physically. And you know, before the best-seller was written about Leaning In, all of a sudden, you know I’m not distracted I’m leaning in, like “What the hell?! What?!!” And I realized, Wow. And then she was brilliant. She gave this description comparing what we were doing to the human health care system, those were her words. Not healthcare, healthcare system of the 50s and 60s, where the dependent beings in human health care are children. They are taken against their will for medical care, where they were man-handled, manipulated, threatened and abused. When she asked us to remember examples of that, oh hell, the old amygdala just did a download, like ‘oh god, I remember being held down to lance an abscess at the end of my finger, I remember being held down to get a shot in my butt, leaning over this doctor’s exam table, of antibiotics, and my Mom, when I started crying, jumping out of her chair holding her hand above her head and going “Shut up, Marty!”. Like, “Don’t embarrass the doctor!”, that’s all. I remember my sister getting her pony tail pulled to keep her mouth open at the dentist.

How do these people in the zoo world train a rhino to give you its hoof for a foot trim and we can’t get a 10 pound Pekingese or Chihuahua to give its foot for a nail trim?

And so then she toggles to the dependent beings in veterinary care, animals. They don’t seek healthcare on their own. And then, they are taken against their will where they are manhandled, manipulated, threatened and abused. And then I thought of my sister Cheryl. This was a really good dentist and that dentist did the whole area. I don’t know if you remember, I don’t know how old you are, but there was a little circular sink with some water going around the circle, and yet there was no dental assistant, you know they grind away and then they flush your mouth out and you spit, gargle and spit.  There’s a drill, and the smell of burnt enamel and the whirr of the fricken drill. Today if they had that smell of that stuff they put in your mouth, the smell is like cloves or something… But what happened is my sister is a physician and she didn’t seek dental services her whole life, she got freaked out. And my older brother got freaked out and was a very successful lawyer with poor dental health. So I thought well hell, this is why pets aren’t coming in. It just hit me like a thunderbolt. It’s not lack of money, it’s not the fact that they don’t have enough information, now that we’ve lost our monopoly and people don’t  have to come to us for information, products and services, it’s just much easier to go on the internet or go to a place that their pet enjoys going aka the pet store. So I thought okay, I love pets, I’m compassionate to pets, I sure as hell didn’t know I was causing repeat severe damage to pets. As for when, that was 2009.

Dr. Marty Becler

Zazie: Wow. I’m sitting here now having bad memories about dentists, so I think everyone will understand that.

Dr. Becker: And you know what too, I had other boarded veterinary behaviourists talk to me about this before. So some of them are upset at me, ‘why do you give Karen Overall credit, I talked to you about it before then.’ I go, you did, but it was one of those days, the way she communicated it I had an awakening. And before that I always just thought it was collateral damage. I saw them licking their lips and yawning and shivering and shaking and hiding. I mean that’s obvious there is distress. But I thought the quicker we get it done and out the better. And that’s just like collateral damage and I didn’t realize well hell, there’s a better way of doing this you know. And I also remember by the way, Zazie, when she went through the signs of fear, anxiety and stress, and I’m looking at shivering, shaking, trembling, whale eye, avoidance, in a C shape, furrowed brow, pinned ears, salivation, yawning, and then she got to shaking dry like they’re wet. And I thought, God I’ve seen that a lot, that’s weird, they’re not wet. Why would they shake dry when they’re not wet? And then the one that got me was dogs that would come in the exam room and lay down and close their eyes. I always thought those were calm. I thought that when they like it they’d be calm like that. I didn’t realize that they were collapsing in immobility. I’m sure you’re familiar with the defense cascade, and I didn’t realize that’s as bad as it got. So I’m thinking, ‘holy shit, the one I thought was the best was the worst’. What else don’t we know?!

It’s the fact that pets have a broad range of emotions that we need to recognize. 

Then I went back and started talking to boarded behaviourists. Came back and talked to everybody I know. Literally, I called everybody. I was like, I have found the answer, holy shit we’ve gotta stop this. We’ve got an obligation and an opportunity, we’ve got to stop this. So I went back to Gary Landsberg, Debra Horwitz, Wayne Hunthausen, and went back to the boarded veterinary behaviourists. And I really think, and I communicate this all the time, Fear Free™ is not me, Fear Free™ is we. The bedrock of Fear Free™ are boarded veterinary behaviourists. And another layer of bedrock are our Certified Applied Animal Behaviourists. And another layer of bedrock are the other people like you. There’s people been talking about it for decades. I’m a populizer, I’m a gatherer of resources. I’m doggedly determined, that’s what I bring to it.

Photo: Bad Monkey Photography

Zazie: That’s so important. And so now vets can train to become Fear Free certified™, and dog trainers, and practices as well. So what can dog trainers get from becoming Fear Free™ certified?

Dr. Becker: Well let’s go one step back. So Fear Free™, I came back and I ran around like I got my tail caught on a fan belt on a car. I was like, ‘we’ve gotta change this, and fast!’. But we didn’t launch until 2016. So we sat back, let’s figure this out. So we started … Everybody told me I was doing this the wrong way. I mean literally everybody. ‘You’re adding too many people to the Fear Free advisory group, why do you have so many people?’ Well what ended up happening, beyond boarded veterinary behaviourists, there are certified applied animal behaviourists. Beyond that, how do these people in the zoo world train a rhino to give you its hoof for a foot trim and we can’t get a 10 pound Pekingese or Chihuahua to give its foot for a nail trim? How do they get an elephant to have an odoscopic exam, and we do a pile of techs restraint to flush the ear out on a Lab? How do they get an Orangutan to willingly participate in its own healthcare for a cephalic blood draw, and we have a rodeo judo throw to hold this 10 pound cat down with 500 pounds of human? So we went to them. Then we went to animal cognition experts. And then we went to the Head of Ethology at MIT. And then we added some of these brilliant people like Patricia McConnell. And then we went to the training groups, you know Karen Pryor and Victoria Stilwell and Brian McMillan, and Marje Alonso and IAABC, and some people at APDT. And then we added the medical experts. So when Fear Free started, it was just going to be, okay, let’s reduce fear, anxiety and stress in dogs and cats. And then we thought, well if they have a great experience at the vet, what happens if they have a shitty life at home? So we’ve got to figure out the home. And then what about if the trainer doesn’t follow things to not only reduce fear, anxiety and stress but increase happy and calm and do enrichment? And then it went on to the next verticals we’re working on, we’re working on grooming, we’re working on dog walking, we’re working on boarding, we’re working on daycare. And we’re working on a shelter module.

We want people to not only look at reducing fear, anxiety and stress, but increasing happy and calm, and looking at enrichment.

So at the end of the year, you’ll be able to adopt a dog at a Fear Free shelter, which is complementary to all shelters. By the way Fear Free™ is also complementary to all veterinary nurses in school and all veterinary students in schools. So you can graduate as a veterinary nurse or veterinarian with all the levels of certification free. And then, you’ll adopt a pet at a Fear Free™ shelter, it’ll live in a Fear Free Happy Home, it will go to a Fear Free™ veterinarian who will refer to a Fear Free™ trainer, Fear Free™ boarding, Fear Free™ dog walking, Fear Free™ grooming. So it’s gone to ecosystem management really, where we take the pet’s emotional well-being and put it in bubble wrap. And then we have avian and exotics launches later in the year. Next year, there’s a group working on the equine modules for horses. And where this is eventually going, Zazie, is we will build and endow the Centre for the Study of Animal Well-being and Enrichment at Washington State University, probably a 75-100 million dollar gift inside ten years.

Zazie: That is so exciting.

Dr. Becker: And then we’ll look at emotional well-being in dairy cows, chickens, beasts of burden in third world countries… I just got back from Cuba you know, they’re whipping the shit out of the horses going down the road not realizing without emotional well-being you don’t have physical well-being.

So trainers are critical in this. I learned this from R.K. Anderson years ago. This is probably late 1980s. R.K. Anderson who's been called the grandfather of boarded veterinary behaviour. He’s the guy that developed the Gentle Leader. I don’t know if you’ve met R.K., what an icon. He said if you ask people if you have any behaviour problems in your dog they’ll say no. He said it’s like saying do you have any behaviour problems in your kids, or your grandkids, and you’d be ‘oh, no not really’. But if you say are there any behaviours you’d like to improve, then they’re like ‘oh God yes’. Barks too much, inappropriate elimination, leash aggression, blah blah blah. So for trainers I think every pet should start out, whether it’s a puppy or a kitten or a shelter pet, working with a trainer. Before what’s happened, let’s say they have noise phobias or leash aggression. First of all we’d never ask about it so we’d never know they had it. So they’re coming in for a wound, vaccinations, diarrhea, dental disease, ear that looks like a fire pit, epilepsy, we would never ask ‘Does your dog have noise phobias’, ‘Does it have separation anxiety’. We’d have never asked are there any pets at home that suffer from these things and could use improvement. And then we’d say the pet’s fighting back at the clinic, well you need to work with a trainer. Well, what’s a trainer? I mean anybody can call themselves a trainer, the public has zero idea, hell the profession has zero idea what APDT, CPDT, KPA, Victoria Stilwell, ABC, they have no idea. And so we thought we’ve got to work with a group of trainers, find 6 or 8 really good groups that train trainers, and then work with the trainers to integrate them within Fear Free™. We have zero desire to take people that love animals and they want to make a career and we’re going to train them to be a trainer. We don’t want to do that. We want to work with the ones that already do it well, integrate them, bridge into Fear Free™. So that they are, whether they’re going to the groomer, they’re going to Memorial Day, they’re walking down the street at night, it’s thunderstorm season, whatever it is, that they work hand-in-hand with the veterinarian and pet owner. Again this is ecosystem management.

Zazie: Brilliant. And so the book is very much aimed at ordinary dog owners and it covers every aspect of a dog’s life. Why did you decide to write the book?

Dr. Becker: Well first of all I would have rather had a root canal than write another book. I am so sick of books. And this sounds horrible from somebody that’s been blessed to sell over 8 million books and had three New York Times bestsellers and made a shitload of money over the years. I have books I’ve made a half a million dollars on. But books change. And so people didn’t want to read a book. They want to go online and read one tip. ‘I don’t want to read a book’. So when I wrote Your Dog: The Owner’s Manual and Your Cat: The Owner’s Manual, those are really good books but there’s also like a thousand other books that are really good on the subject. And you can find everything online.

Photo: Bad Monkey Photography

But when we got to looking, there really wasn’t anything designed for the pet owner that looked at emotional well-being and that. And I think we were smart, like I was like ‘oh God I don’t want to write another book’ because that’s hard, you know, it’s really hard. But I thought, okay, we’ve got to have it because there’s nothing out there to look at this stuff, so away we went. I have to say I’m pretty proud of the book. One of the only negative reviews on Amazon was somebody that didn’t like it chopped up as it is, you know they want it to read like a book where you read a novel. Well they might want to do it but 99 out of 100 don’t want to do that, they want little short bites with stories, illustrations, and I think we did that. I think we got what today’s reader wants with the information they need, in a way that that same information in the book is what you’re going to hear in the veterinary hospital and you’re going to hear from a trainer that’s Fear Free™ certified. So all on the same book, so to speak. And then the glory goes to the boarded veterinary behaviourists. I’m so tickled to be able to give people like Lisa Radosta, Wailani Sung, or individuals like you the limelight. These decades of education, training and experience you have, that you can manifest it on a wide audience.

Zazie: Thank you so much!

Dr. Becker: We have 260 people on the Fear Fear™ Advisory Group. Oh my god, they are brilliant. We’ve got the world’s probably number 1 medical expert, the best known veterinarian in the world Stephen Ettinger’s our chief medical officer. Gary Landsberg’s the board’s behaviourist, our head of research. Tony Buffington is the world expert in feline enrichment, our head of environmental environment. Robin Downing is our head of pain and clinical bioethics. That’s just the team. And then we have the head of integrated medicine at the Mayo Clinic. You think what the hell does that have to do with Fear Free™? Well they’re experts in patient-centred medicine and in integrated care which fits in perfectly with Fear Free™.

Zazie: Such an amazing team. And so, the book is a group effort, and it has all these lovely little bits like as you’ve just said you can basically open it and start reading little stories or tips anywhere. What was it like working as a group of people on the book?

Dr. Becker: It was a great experience. First of all it’s my daughter Mikkel’s fifth book. And so she knows the process. This is my 25th book. For Dr. Radosta and Dr. Sung it’s their first book. One of the things we did is we worked with a writer, and that makes it easy. Because I don’t know if you’ve written a book, but knowing how to sequence a book is really a gift. And working with her, she’d say ‘give me a story on this’ or ‘tell me how you do this’ and then she’d just whip it up in the kitchen and it would come out just brilliant.


Zazie: Fantastic. And the book is absolutely full of stories but I wanted to ask if you have a favourite bit or favourite section at all?

Dr. Becker: I think my favourite thing would be… I graduated from veterinary school being taught that animals didn’t feel pain. So I graduated 1980, 40 years ago, literally told by professors in Neurology and in Clinical Medicine that pets didn’t feel pain, and if they did it was good because they would be inactive and not tear the stitches out or walk on the leg we just fixed. And I’m thinking, how in the hell could I have thought that when we dehorn and brand a cow and they literally bellow, just scream. That’s not pain? Or you step on your dog’s foot and they cry? I mean how dumb was that? I think it’s just the fact that pets have a broad range of emotions that we need to recognize. You know I fly a lot and you go through first class and we used to call it the Blackberry prayer, it wasn’t my term, but when people had Blackberries their heads were all bowed looking at their phones as they got on. And now it’s the iPhone, Galaxy 9 prayer. But if a baby walks through and is crying, everybody looks up. Everybody. And ‘ooohh, what’s wrong? Is it an upset stomach, dirty diaper, diarrhea, nap, hungry, oh she’ll fix it, don’t worry.’ Well pets are like that. That impending thunder storm, 4th of July, separation anxiety, leash aggression, dominance aggression, with the cat you get attacked on the way to the bathroom, whatever you’ve got. So a recognition that they have emotions and we have an obligation to look at both their physical and emotional well-being.

Zazie: Absolutely, thank you. And then I wanted to ask you quickly about your website Fear Free Happy Homes and what people can find there.

Dr. Becker: That’s probably the place I’d most like to promote because people are the ones that are going to spend most of the time with a pet. In the course of a year if you stripped out how long they were at the veterinarian, the training and the grooming and stuff, what are we, one per cent or less? One tenth of one per cent? So we want people to not only look at reducing fear, anxiety and stress, but increasing happy and calm, and looking at enrichment. Today’s zoos do a better job of enrichment than most homes. And we’ve got to get to where these pets are not mentally bored or tired, they have these athletic bodies, with the minds that can find supper, and we’ve got an obligation there again to let them express their genetic exuberance.

Zazie: It’s great that you’re looking at enrichment as well. And I have to say that’s one of the things I loved about the book, that you do cover everything it’s not just about going to the vet.

Thank you so much for your time!

Companion Animal Psychology has published interviews with talented scientists, writers, trainers and veterinarians who are working to promote good animal welfare. See the full list or subscribe to learn more about how to have happy dogs and cats.

About Marty Becker, DVM

Dr. Marty Becker, “America’s Veterinarian,” has spent his life working toward better health for pets and the people who love them. In recent years, his realization that it’s impossible to provide for pets’ physical well-being without equal focus on their emotional well-being led him to found the Fear Free™ initiative.

Because the anxiety and stress of veterinary visits was preventing pets from receiving the veterinary care they need and deserve, Dr. Becker brought together veterinary behaviorists and dozens of other experts and leaders in the field to develop an educational program to train veterinarians in easing the fear and anxiety of their patients and clients. This training and certification program launched in March of 2016.

Dr. Becker was the resident veterinary contributor on "Good Morning America" for 17 years and is currently a member of the Board of Directors of the American Humane Association. He serves as an adjunct professor at his alma mater, the Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine and practices at North Idaho Animal Hospital.

Note: This interview has been lightly edited for length.

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Interview with Dr. Marc Bekoff on Canine Confidential

Dr. Marc Bekoff on dogs, emotions, citizen science and his new book, Canine Confidential.

Dr. Marc Bekoff (right) with Minnie. Photo: Tom Gordon

Dr. Marc Bekoff’s new book, Canine Confidential: Why Dogs Do What They Do is out on 13th April. I was thrilled to interview him over email about why he wrote the book and the importance of observing dogs.


Zazie: Why did you decide to write Canine Confidential?

Marc: There are many reasons, and in reality, I've been writing this book for many, many years. I bring a unique perspective to the study of dogs in that I was trained in ethology and have done long-term field work on free-ranging dogs, wild coyotes, and various birds including Adélie penguins in Antarctica.

Among the most important reasons are: to emphasize how important it is to watch dogs and to learn as much as one can about different aspects of behavior; to emphasize that there is a good deal of individual variability among dogs so speaking about "the dog" is misleading; to stress that dogs display multiple intelligences and don't only "live in the present"; to show that dogs are not dumb-downed wolves; to provide a lot of detailed data in accessible prose to non-researchers, information that can be used to allow dogs to be dogs as much as they can be in an increasingly human-dominated world (in many ways, dogs are captive animals whose freedoms are severely restricted); to discuss how dogs sense their world via smell, sight, hearing, touch, and taste, and why they should be allowed to exercise their senses and to sniff to their hearts' delight; to let their walks be for them, not for us; to dispel myths such as dogs are unconditional lovers (anyone who's rescued a dog who has been abused knows this to be so), peeing and marking are the same, growling is always aggressive, it's a bad idea to hug dogs or to play tug-of-war or to "get down and dirty" and to romp around with them (when we do it must be on their terms, of course), that dogs (and other nonhuman animals) don't display dominance (they do, but we shouldn't dominate them to get them to live in harmony with us), that they always circle before they lie down, that intense play-fighting always or usually escalates into fighting (research shows this actually only very rarely occurs); that dog parks are a bad idea across the board (they're not, but only dogs who like going to dog parks should be taken there); to provide trainers with information that can be used to enhance the dog's life when they work with their clients, canine and human, and to strongly suggest that trainers observe dogs outside of the context in which there is an issue; to strongly suggest that people select certified trainers and to choose someone as carefully as they'd choose a neurosurgeon; and to stress how important it is to allow dogs to exercise their senses, their muscles, and their hearts.

I mix in a good deal of the latest research on various aspects of dog behavior with numerous stories, and take a descriptive "anatomical" approach to naming the dogs with whom I've had the pleasure of meeting and watching. For example, readers will meet Bernie and Beatrice "the butt-ers," Tammy "the tongue," Louie "the licker," Harry and Helen "the happy jumpers," and Peter "the pecker-pecker." All names, canine and human, have been changed to protect the guilty.

I also write some about human-human interactions and how they reveal a lot about their dogs and the people themselves. It's just a coincidence that this is The Year of the Dog, and I'm thrilled that my book was published in this special time. Of course, every day should be "the day of the dog" because we are so fortunate to have them in our lives.  They should only be as fortunate to have us in their lives.

Zazie: The subtitle of the book is Why dogs do what they do, and in it you answer lots of questions about why dogs do things, like ‘what are they doing when scent marking?’ and ‘why do they roll in stuff?’ How did you pick the questions, and are there any of the topics that are particular favorites?

Marc: I selected the different topics based on many decades of studying dogs and their wild relatives, by cataloging questions that I've been repeatedly asked when talking with people at different venues, and also by paying attention to those areas that are important to understand to give dogs the very best lives possible. Among my favorites are play behavior -- how dogs are able to play fairly and have fun-on-the-run as they engage in frenetic "zoomies" and low-key play -- and topics centering on the cognitive, emotional, and moral lives of dogs and other animals. I also really enjoy listening to people talk about their dogs and also other people at the dog park and their friends. Dogs can be social catalysts for bringing people together and really get people talking about things they don't typically share out of the places where they bring their dogs for exercise and to have fun with other dogs. Sometimes I'd politely excuse myself when someone was sharing TMI (too much information). 

Photo: Gerald Marella/Shutterstock

Zazie: You write a lot about the emotional lives of dogs. How do we know which emotions dogs experience – and what more do we need to know?

Marc: That's a great question. There are ample detailed data from many ethological perspectives and a growing number of neuroimaging studies that clearly show that dogs are emotional beings who experience joy, happiness, sadness, grief, pain, disgust, jealousy, and likely guilt. The bibliography and the notes in Canine Confidential are lengthy and filled with up-to-date data from ethological and neurobiological studies. These data clearly show that the real question at hand is why emotions have evolved, not if they have evolved. The reason I write that it's likely dogs display guilt is because we really don't know if this is the case quite yet. An oft-repeated error in both scientific essays and the popular press goes something like, "Research has shown that dogs don't display guilt," and a study by Dr. Alexandra Horowitz is cited as evidence. However, she did not show that dogs do not display guilt, only that we are not very good at reading guilt in dogs. I include an exchange with Dr. Horowitz about this point, with which she totally agrees. She wrote, "My study was decidedly NOT about whether dogs 'feel guilt' or not." Readers will be pleased and surprised to see how much we really know about the emotional lives of dogs, and I also point out where more research is needed. One can be sure that dogs are sentient beings who care about what happens to themselves, their families, and their friends.

Zazie: The book is full of lovely stories about dogs, including your own dogs. As a writer, do you most enjoy writing about the scientific research or about the anecdotes, or do you prefer writing about both together?

Marc: I really prefer writing about both together, as I do in my book and in numerous essays that I write for Psychology Today about dogs and many other animals. It's always interested me that many anecdotes are supported by empirical data that are collected at a later date. I also write a good deal about the importance of "citizen science," and that's why I encourage people to become ethologists and "naturalists in the dog park" if they go there with their dog(s).

Zazie: One thing that’s clear from this book is that people tell you stories about their dogs at the dog park, or email you stories about their animals. Are there any particular topics that people tend to talk to you about the most?

Marc: Not really. What I love about the stories I'm told is how wide-ranging they are. Quite often, the questions I'm asked and the stories I'm told focus on a particular dog and their human, and the unique relationship they've formed. Once again, there not only is a good deal of within species variability among dogs, but also among their humans and in the dog-human relationships that are formed. I feel very lucky to have people share their stories with me in person and via email and the occasional letter, although sometimes when I open my email inbox I feel overwhelmed. But, that feeling disappears rapidly as I learn more and more about dogs and their humans.

Zazie: You say that even though we don’t know everything about dogs, we still know enough to be able to give them rewarding lives. What are the most important things we can do for our dogs?

Marc: Love them, respect them, meet them at least half-way, develop mutual tolerance, and learn as much as you can not only about dog behavior but about the unique individual(s) with whom you chose to share your home and your heart. And, let them be dogs as much as possible. There's no reason to be helicopter guardians, yet people say "No" or "Stop that" far more often than they say "Good dog" or "That's ok." In some ways, my books can be viewed as a field guide to freedom in which I encourage people to unleash their dog as much as possible. Choosing to live with a dog (or other animal) is a "cradle to grave" commitment and we must remember that we are their lifelines.

Photo: Shutterstock

Zazie: At the end of the book, there is a really nice appendix that teaches people what ethology is and how to do it. What can people gain from becoming ‘citizen ethologists’?

Marc: They can gain a lot. By becoming fluent in dog they not only can learn some nitty-gritty details about dog behavior, but also about how unique each dog is. It's also a lot of fun to do these informal studies, and I love it when people come to me and ask me how to become an ethologist. In the book I tell stories about how people have told me that learning to "speak dog"  and to try to think like they do has helped them not only to understand their dog, but also how this information improves their relationship with their canine companion. Learning about dog behavior and dog-human relationships is a win-win for all.


Thank you, Marc, for taking the time to answer my questions!

Canine Confidential: Why Dogs Do What They Do is published by Chicago University Press.

Companion Animal Psychology has published interviews with talented scientists, writers, trainers and veterinarians who are working to promote good animal welfare. See the full list or subscribe to learn more about how to have happy dogs and cats.

Bio: Marc is professor emeritus of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder. He has won many awards for his scientific research including a Guggenheim Fellowship and the Exemplar Award from the Animal Behavior Society for long-term contributions to the field of animal behavior. Marc has published more than 30 books and three encyclopedias, and writes regularly for Psychology Today on "all things dog" and various topics focusing on animal cognition, animal emotions, and compassionate conservation. His homepage is marcbekoff.com and, with Jane Goodall, ethologicalethics.org.

Companion Animal Psychology is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Companion Animal Psychology is also a participant in the Etsy Affiliate Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Etsy.com.